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Started by pboak81 at 04-27-2007 9:04 PM. Topic has 3 replies.

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   04-27-2007, 9:04 PM
pboak81 is not online. Last active: 4/28/2007 5:48:26 AM pboak81

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Curious about capitalism
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Hello to all of you who are kind enough to read my post and respond to it.

I'm very new to the ideas of Ayn Rand and Objectivism and was hoping for some feedback and insight from those of you out there who consider yourself Objectivists. I find her ideas and school of thought very intriguing, but I'm having some trouble coming to terms with her ideas on capitalism. The idea of a system of complete and open free trade without at least some government regulation seems somewhat unrealistic to me, especially speaking in terms of global trade. I'm wondering if striving for that kind of unattainable ideal runs contradictory to the concept of living in an Objective Reality and holding reason as the guiding principal of your life?

This is really the primary area of concern I've had in fully embracing Objectivism. I was hoping that those of you who have fully accepted and embraced Objectivism could help me in my pursuit to understand how laissez-faire capitalism fits into the broader scheme of Ayn Rand's philosophy. Any insights, views, or points that overlooking would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this and respond.

Patrick


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   04-28-2007, 4:41 PM
DonQuixote99 is not online. Last active: 6/10/2007 10:04:34 AM DonQuixote99

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Re: Curious about capitalism
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I am no expert on Objectivism, but I can give you more general reasons why 'regulation' may be problematical. First, you have to specilfy what sort of goals you're trying to accomplish with regulation. Limiting child labor is one thing; 'license' regulations whose actual goal is eliminating competition is another. This points to one big problem of regulation--people with political power use it for their private advantage.

For certain societal goals, like the child labor issue, regulation is good an useful--in it's absence, firms that might wish to restrain themselves voluntarily are at a disadvantage to firms without such scruples.

A big problem with regulation is that the 'cure' of government power may be worse than the 'disease.' Certain problems, such as 'equitable wage levels,' perhaps, require great discrestionary power be afforded to government to effect the remedies advocates desire, and if government is so empowered, experience tells us abuse and bad effects will follow.
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   04-28-2007, 9:12 PM
NickOtani is not online. Last active: 3/3/2008 7:08:18 PM NickOtani

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Re: Curious about capitalism
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I'm very new to the ideas of Ayn Rand and Objectivism and was hoping for some feedback and insight from those of you out there who consider yourself Objectivists.

It's too bad you are not asking me for some feedback and insight, Patrick. I might be able to give you some, but I do not consider myself an Objectivist.

I find her ideas and school of thought very intriguing, but I'm having some trouble coming to terms with her ideas on capitalism. The idea of a system of complete and open free trade without at least some government regulation seems somewhat unrealistic to me, especially speaking in terms of global trade.

Ayn Rand does not endorse complete and open trade without at least some government regulation. She is not an anarchist. She does believe in a role for government. She allows that the government have the monopoly on the use of retalitory force to secure the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. All transactions in a capitalistic system should be mutually voluntary. Nobody has a right to the product of someone else's goods or services. Someone who initiates force against someone else, violates that persons right to do what he or she wants with his or her property, goods or services, and thus violates that person's right to the pursuit of happiness. It is the function of the government to secure those rights, to protect private property rights.

Things are not so simple in real life, but free trade is the ideal worth shooting for, even on the global level. According to the Declaration of Independence, every human has these property rights, not just Americans. It is the function of governments to protect those natural human rights that humans have by virtue of being human. Too often, governments violate those rights.

I have lived in Europe for more than twenty years and seen the difference, back before the wall came down, between generally capitalist countries, West Germany, and non-capitalist countries, East Germany. There was a stark contrast.

I think one of the reasons the wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed is because of capitalistic behavior. We traded with countries who were also capiatlistic and isolated countries which violated human rights. It isn't this simple. Some countries got around our policies, and some countries, like in the east, used our technology to get oil out of the ground and force us to pay high prices for it, and we are still dealing with these problems.

There are many problems which the invisible hand of economic law may not seem to solve quickly, like business which practice discrimination. We can't always just rely on patrons voluntarily boycotting those businesses. Yes, we have property rights, but how do we deal with rivers running through properties? The capitalistic model is easy to understand, and Atlas Shrugged showed many examples of how unjust things can get if government tries to control the means of production and the distribution of wealth, but there can also be problems with too little government.

This can go on and on. I want to get back to my Alice story.

bis bald,

Nick

 


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   04-30-2007, 6:29 AM
Londoner is not online. Last active: 5/2/2007 4:00:47 AM Londoner

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Re: Curious about capitalism
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Hi Pboak. I reckon areas such as trade and tax are the areas where Rand's ideas have the greatest impact at present - which is fortunate, because in my view they are also the areas where her ideas are most sound.

You say: "The idea of a system of complete and open free trade without at least some government regulation seems somewhat unrealistic to me, especially speaking in terms of global trade. I'm wondering if striving for that kind of unattainable ideal runs contradictory to the concept of living in an Objective Reality and holding reason as the guiding principal of your life?"

This is a fair comment on many areas of objectivist philosophy, not just the economic side. In fact, it applies to many other philosophies.

But like most philosophies, the fact that no government is likely to enact objectivist principles in the next few years does not mean those principles are impossible to enact. For most of human history, there has been no tax and no government. There is no reason why we cannot reduce the size of government and of the tax burden to very low levels.

You are right that laissez-faire capitalism is especially hard to introduce globally - but it would be possible for one country or group of countries to introduce it within their own borders.

My own view is that the only government regulations should be those that prevent the use of force or fraud, or provide compensation for the victims of force and fraud.

A key insight I gained from Atlas Shrugged is that all taxation requires the threat of force to extract money - it is never a voluntary transaction. This transformed my view of government spending and the welfare state.




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