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04-14-2009, 7:00 PM slacker00 Joined on 03-08-2009 Posts 22 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God I get what Nick was talking about.  Rand talks a lot about logic, but she doesn't flesh it out.  She does a lot of hand waving, sets up a lot of straw men, like the mystics and witchdoctors or whatever, then knocks them down.  Nothing wrong with logic, but there's nothing logical about calling everyone who disagrees with you names like witchdoctor.  If her philosophy is so self consistent and rational, she should've proven it, but she never did.  Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff proves nothing except that Objectivism mostly consists of a sequence of rants.  I think there is more to Objectivism than has been written by Ayn Rand, I think we are just scratching the surface.  I don't think Objectivism has to be a mystical faith in reason, as it it described by Rand, that's simply the current state of the art.  I think Nick was right. Unfortunately, Objectivism as a philosophy, is dead.  Objectivism is defined as the philosophy of Ayn Rand.  There is no interpreting it, proving or disproving it, adding or subtracting from it.  The name Objectivism is tied to Rand, it's hers.  I guess if we disagree with one idea she ever had, we can't call ourselves Objectivists.  Perhaps we simply must call ourselves rationalists or existentialists or something, but Objectivism is strictly defined as Ayn Rand's stated philosophical ideas.  Objectivism is really just a historical footnote to the life of Ayn Rand.  The best we can do is read her philosophical books alongside her other great works of fiction.    Report

04-16-2009, 8:41 PM galtsgulcher Joined on 03-15-2009 Posts 47 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God (slacker wrote...) "Unfortunately, Objectivism as a philosophy, is dead. Objectivism is defined as the philosophy of Ayn Rand. There is no interpreting it, proving or disproving it, adding or subtracting from it. The name Objectivism is tied to Rand, it's hers. I guess if we disagree with one idea she ever had, we can't call ourselves Objectivists." Hi slacker, On that basis alone I can't be an Objectivist because I'm a Christian... ...but then again being more literal, practical, and behaviorally oriented, rather than theoretical intellectual or philosophical, I employ Rand's writings in an unintended and mundane purpose... ...as an American Capitalist Business Operations Manual... ...and to that purpose, I've found none better. As to God and Reason... I find little operational difference between the two other than one coming from the other. Everyone is a slave with just ONE choice... ...we ALL get to choose our master. Take Care, Greg    Report

04-18-2009, 7:33 AM slacker00 Joined on 03-08-2009 Posts 22 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God Hi Greg, I think most of us are in the same boat.  We are drawn in by a lot of the Objectivist ideas, some of which are very compelling.  I think it's a very noble and ambitious concept to try to build a complete personal philosophy which is 100% logically consistent. Unfortunately Objectivism isn't.  That fact doesn't mean that we can't study, learn, enjoy the ideas.  IMHO, Rand's works are art and should be enjoyed for their own sake.  It's a stepping stone to the next great revelation, whatever that might be. But Rand herself was exclusionary.  She pretty much railed against anyone and everyone who didn't share her exact philosophy.  This goes for religion, in which she pronounced philosophic atheism as rational.  This goes for politics, where I assume that she was a political party of ONE.  As well as art, writing, fiction, etc where she was the only true artist, in the Objectivist sense, which is the only sense that matters to her.  Pretty much any human endeavor where she dipped her toe in the water, she made an Objectivist pronouncement about it.  It's just her personality, she was a celebrity with many people hanging on her every word and she wasn't afraid to give her opinion on pretty much anything.  Unfortunately, there's nothing rational about a collection of opinions like that, some of which I've found to be contradictory. As for being an Objectivist, I've never been one, by the letter of the law.  I think there was really only one true Objectivist, that being Ayn Rand.  I know, Leonard Peikoff represents her living legacy, but he's still derivative.  He's stuck trying to interpret the prophet, so to speak.  But I know the ARI takes a pretty hard line in defining Objectivism.  I'm content to take the hardest line and drawing one line between Objectivism & Ayn Rand, the rest are wannabes or historians of her life, at best.    Report

04-21-2009, 11:39 AM galtsgulcher Joined on 03-15-2009 Posts 47 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God Hi slack, Rand did give the cohesiveness of her ideas a good go, and I'm grateful for the inspiring trail of bread crumbs she left behind for anyone who wants to be an American Capitalist producer. As for being exclusionary... Ayn sure didn't corner the market on that. The one most commonly hurled word on Christian forums is: ~heretic~! (lol!) For any idea to have practical real world utility, it ~cannot~ exist ~solely~ as the negative emotional reaction ~against~ what it negates. It must have ~stand alone~ positive qualities of it's own which are ~completely~ independent of what it is not... ...and on this I give Rand VERY high marks... ...for although she rails heavily against the weak dependent feminised mindset of liberal socialist government parasitism... ...she also maps out EXACTLY what to DO to live FREE of it. So I've been following that clearly marked trail that for decades by implementing Rands American Capitalist business principles... and they have yielded rewards ~far~ beyond my expectations. While Galt's Gulch is obviously not a real physical place... the beauty of the ethical environment of Galt's Gulch can be found ~wherever~ decent honorable men do business with each other. I truly love Rand's descriptions of the proper way to relate to money... ...for one of its highest and most noble uses is to BUY your FREEDOM. : ) Take Care, Greg    Report

06-13-2009, 12:42 PM Jon Gold Joined on 06-13-2009 Posts 1 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God As it has been put forth and been interpolated by man I believe that the bible and its teaching have created more evil than its intended good seeing as man has put faith in it they believe that they can be right by saying "i am lying" but through the non-contradiction theory, this so called paradox is just plain stupid because they aren't saying anything exept im dedicating myself to anti-life anti-AisA which is to deny existence if you say that its a paradox because it does not give a subject to what its lying about then it is trying to deny thinking to deny making a choice in order to prove innocence,but in doing so that still makes them unpractical and evil by creating a link from evil to good by trying to force the good to feel guilty, and to try to have faith in the guilt of the good such as Eddie Willers did he thought that just by accepting his value that he did not need to show his appreciation of that value. EX.in simpler terms if you have a rubix cube you know that originally all sides are one color but that does not mean you can just close your eyes and your mind and start turning, one has to think to show the product of ones values and the product of ones values should determine how much of an advocate and how dedicated that person is to life and the name of the best within us.    Report

06-28-2009, 5:02 PM slacker00 Joined on 03-08-2009 Posts 22 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God Hi Jon Gold.  Welcome to the forum. Rand did a good job arguing against God.  She's probably the primary reason why I will never be a true believer in what I cannot perceive.  She attacks a lot of religion's weakest arguments, such as how to cope with death.  That's the whole point of the afterlife and all of that baloney.  Nobody really knows what's out in that void.  Nevertheless, Rand really never explained how to deal with death.  The few times she was asked about it, I felt the answer was a type of denial or evasion.  I mean, I guess in an atheist's mind, there's no need to worry about it, because it'll be nothing.  I'm still skeptical that death should be treated so blankly in society.    Report

07-27-2009, 12:24 PM rca411 Joined on 07-27-2009 Posts 5 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God Nick, There is no 'liars paradox' though. The phrase, "I am lying." Is neither true, nor false. It is meaningless without being predicated. Asking the question, "what are you lying about?" immediately clears up any apparent paradox. The same goes for "This sentence is not provable." It is completely self-referent and meaningless. This entire argument hinges on the fallacy that paradoxes exist in nature. They do not. Paradoxes exist in the mind, not in nature. The fact that a bumblebee can fly in spite of its mass is not a natural paradox. The bee can, in fact, fly. I see it doing so. The fact that I don't have a mechanism to explain this phenomenon is my problem to work on, not the bee's. I agree that if you deconstruct logic it does ultimately rely on certain faith claims. Descartes' bumped into this problem and called, 2+2=4 a "clear and distinct" principle. Not very satisfying, but ultimately, how many times do you need to bang your head into a brick wall to know that the wall exists. Literally. Your whole post is a vehicle to make the point, "Sometimes, I think Objectivists place too much emphasis on logic and reason. It’s almost like a blind faith, like they replace the God they rejected with this new God, their only means of discovering reality. This doesn’t need to be. One can stand on one’s own feet and use logic as a tool but not let logic, like a new deity, rule." Rand regarded logic as the tool that humans have to survive. Rand did not get into who granted us those tools, where they came from etc... only that logic is what we, humans, get. I agree that there are some people that claim to be objectivists, who replace 'god' with reason. But I think they do so because they have not yet developed any individuality and are searching for an answer beyond themselves. You wouldn't use logic to understand god in the same way you wouldn't use a circular saw to hammer a nail.    Report

07-27-2009, 12:51 PM rca411 Joined on 07-27-2009 Posts 5 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God galtsgulcher, This that you said is interesting to me: "For any idea to have practical real world utility, it ~cannot~ exist ~solely~ as the negative emotional reaction ~against~ what it negates. It must have ~stand alone~ positive qualities of it's own which are ~completely~ independent of what it is not... " The way I see it, this can be simplified. Would you agree with the following restatement as reflecting your intended meaning? : Emotions have no practical real world utility because they are not ideas. If it can be restated like that, it would make sense to me on one hand because all of the 'things' or 'creations' and such around us come into existence based on the idea of the one that created it. This computer for instance is an idea of a computer in the mind of the creator before it becomes one physically. On the other hand it raises a question in my mind. What good are emotions? Can emotions be good? Isn't there any situation in which an emotion has utility, or no?    Report

08-24-2009, 9:17 AM Arlye Joined on 08-24-2009 Posts 3 Re: Logic, Objectivism new God This is, by far, the most interesting of threads I have read tonight ... my first time here. Descartes ... The first premise of his famous quote, 'I doubt, therefore I think', from what I have read tonight, may have been Rand's shortcoming. I only know her fiction and agreed with her individualism after I found the fallacies in the socialistic view of what is 'good'. Whst is 'true' is a little more difficult to discern. I think logic will get us there eventually, but we do not have all the data yet. What is functional continues to amaze me, since that is usually what is believed to be true, but we are an amazingly imaginative species.    Report

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