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General Discussion
Started by Hotu Matua at 10-31-2009 5:50 PM. Topic has 8 replies.
  
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 10-31-2009, 5:50 PM
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Hotu Matua
Joined on 10-30-2009
Monterrey, Mexico
Posts 10
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Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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Imagine we are living in year 2150.
Objectivism has won the minds of the people all over the world. Country after country, even in Africa, the Muslim World and Latin America, citizens have achieved an unprecedented level of freedom and prosperity.
Science and technology have brought high standards of life for most of the people. "Poverty" still exists in some way, but those considered "poor" by 2150 standards are far better off than the rich people of today. The arts are flourshing. People live 120 years in average, explore planets, use solar and hydrogen energy, enjoy sex, tolerate religous differences (most of which are withering away or becoming less mystical) and introduce improvements in the genetic legacy of their children.
Millions of people have been moving to the USA from all over the world, and millions of Americans have moved abroad. As a result, the ethnic mix and the language diversity in the USA is far wider than what seen today. Whites speaking English as their mothertongue represent a third of the USA population The rest is a mix of Hispanic, African, Asian and Hindu people. By the same token, a big chunk of Mexican citizens are ethnically Anglosaxon, and so forth for the rest of the world.
Since all countries are now free and rich, someone proposes to have a single planetary government, a single police force and a single army. And mankind says yes. The new World government restricts itself to safety and justice issues. Laissez-faire economy is respected and promoted. ;ost parents worldwide take their children to objectivists schools.
Now, since nationalism is remembered as a source of irrational conflicts and coertion, people get rid of all national flags and national anthems, including yours. The name "dollar" is left to history. The Constitution of the United States of America becomes a venerated but outdated document, overshadowed by a new World Constitution. A World Flag is invented with a corresponding World Anthem. . My question is: would this world, in principle, appeal to the objectivist? More specifically, will the perspective of a free global society based on objectivist principles compensate for the future loss of the American national identity?
(I am a Mexican, and therefore not particulary sensitive about the loss of an American identity (or a Mexican identity to be honest), but since Ayn Rand wrote with such a patriotic zeal, I wonder what would it mean for an American objectivist to lose national identity in favour of a free planet)
To be is to be is to be.
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11-01-2009, 11:42 PM
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galtsgulcher
Joined on 03-15-2009
Posts 47
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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(Hotu wrote...)
"Objectivism has won the minds of the people all over the world."
Hi Hotu,
While that's true...
America has won far more minds of paople all over the world... for millions have even risked their lives for the chance to enjoy the individual freedoms and financial opportunities of this nation.
Being an American is completely unique in that it is NOT a single ethnicity but is rather a set of values that anyone regardless of race can adopt as their own. Anyone can become an American... and anyone does.
Don't forget... Objectivism IS American...
...because it was BORN in this nation.
Take Care,
Greg
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11-02-2009, 10:39 AM
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Hotu Matua
Joined on 10-30-2009
Monterrey, Mexico
Posts 10
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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Thanks for yor response, Greg.
I guess I did not understand what you meant by saying "Objectivism IS American because it was BORN in this nation" putting BORN in capital lettes. Do you mean that, other than its American origin, Objectivism is rather universal?
If that is is what you mean, I understand your point. Being American is more about holding some values that about living within specific borders and under a specific government and Constitution. In that sense, all objectivists of the world are Americans. I love America for that reason and in that specific sense, although Mexican, I have always felt American myself .
But the specific borders, government, flag, anthem, monetary currency and laws are part of reality today. My question is whether you would prefer a free planet even if it entails the eventual abolition of the American State (in favor of a global State holding the same principles), and a further dilution of traditions and symbols commonly cherished as "American".
Let me bring still a totally different scenario to give my question a twist:
We live in 2060 and, tragically enough, a totalitarian government has come into power in the USA. On the other side of the Atlantic, oddly enough, the UK becomes the freest country in the world. American Objectivists respond to the situation in three ways:
1) Some revolt against their government joining guerrilla. By doing so, most face jail, concentration camps and death. They die believing that Ayn Rand would have done the same.
2) Others, fearful of the dare consequences of resisting an abusive regimen, try to "adapt" to the new situation, keeping a low profile. By not fighting the regimen, they are giving up some freedom and sustaining the evil regimen, but keeping their homes and jobs, as well as those cultural symbols that make them feel that they are, in some say, "still in peace and at home". After all, they say, Ayn Rand wrote that "morality ends where a gun begins".
3) Many other choose to flee and move to the UK. They say they follow Ayn Rand example, as she also left a non-free country (Russia) to live in a free one. Once in the UK, they feel free and safe again, and start rebuilding their productive lives. They live now, though, in a place that cannot be culturally recognizable as "America". They have become another cultural minority. A minority that struggles to keep alive symbols such as baseball and Thanksgiving but whose children learn how to play rugby, drop the final "r" at the end of each syllable, sing "God Save our Gracious Queen" and start smiling patronizingly at their parents when they call the family car's trunk the"trunk" instead of the "boot".
In your opinion, which of these three ways to respond would be preferrable from the Ojectivist perspective? To die fighting for freedom, to move into a free society even if it is not culturally "American", or to stay in America even when it is not free? Any of them? None of them?
To be is to be is to be.
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11-03-2009, 1:21 AM
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galtsgulcher
Joined on 03-15-2009
Posts 47
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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(Hotu wrote...)
"I guess I did not understand what you meant by saying "Objectivism IS American because it was BORN in this nation" putting BORN in capital lettes. Do you mean that, other than its American origin, Objectivism is rather universal?"
Hi Hotu,
By being born in America, I mean that Ayn Rand was here enjoying the freedoms of America while she developed the principles of Objectivism. So Objectivism is American simply because it originated here.
While I never met Ayn Rand, oddly enough I discovered much to my suprise that for a few years in the 1950's she lived not far from me.
As far as universal...
The culture war between the Capitalist producers and the liberal socialist moochers and the government bureaucratic looters who service them is raging world wide.
(Hotu)
"But the specific borders, government, flag, anthem, monetary currency and laws are part of reality today. My question is whether you would prefer a free planet even if it entails the eventual abolition of the American State (in favor of a global State holding the same principles), and a further dilution of traditions and symbols commonly cherished as "American"."
No.
Because your premise is at odds with the reality that there could never be a global state holding the same principles as America.
However, the likelyhood of the end of America is much more likely, because America is the anomaly. It's the rest of the world which is the norm... a stinking cesspool of socialist government parasites and the corrupt despots they deserve.
As to your 2060 scenario, I would add #4:
The Atlas Shrugged response.
Build your own Galt's Gulch and enjoy living there while the looter's bureaucracy grinds to a halt from it's own self destructive dead weight while the angry liberal socialist moochers tear down what's left of the government for it's failure to continue to give them the entitlements they expect to get...
...and I would move the date up to 2012.
I'm not sure if you'll beat us down the drain first or not. Your country is already unraveling at the seams, as the huge powerful violent warring drug cartels scatter chopped off heads in bags and kidnap tourists for ransom with impunity.
It will certainly be interesting to see what happens.
Take Care,
Greg
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11-03-2009, 5:00 AM
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Hotu Matua
Joined on 10-30-2009
Monterrey, Mexico
Posts 10
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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You've presented a very good choice. To build a refuge for liberty.
In the same way that America was founded by people seeking freedom and prosperity, modern free men could do the same. I am thinking, specifically, in temporary secession. Imagine a state, say Texas, whose citizens embrace freedom and secede from a country that is becoming increasingly socialist. Free men from all USA will move to Texas. Similar secession movements could take place in other countries.
(In fact, I have recently explored the possibility of secession of the Northeast of Mexico, where I live. Mexican Northeast states share a common history with Texas and have for long time valued individualism over collectivism. Maybe you've heard about Monterrey, the largest city around which this particular culture and region has developed. Before the "war against drugs" started by the central government as a smoke curtain to win the people over, Monterrey was considered the safest city in Latin America only second to San Juan de Puerto Rico. In regards to per capita income, literacy and life expectancy, it is closer to Alabama than to the rest of Mexico. During the history of this region, there have been attempts to set it free and independent from Mexico.)
What I don't understand is why you seem to deny the possibility of a future global state holding the same principles of America. In the end of the day, many paradigms have changed throughout human history.
Take the abolition of slavery, for example. Or the continuing spread of religious tolerance. Or the fall of totalitarian governments. Why shouldn't Objectivist philosophy become such a dominant force as to make many countries unite in a sort of confederated government? If you can't think so globally, at least think in terms of Western Societies, or the Americas.
We know that all socialist societies will fail eventually, and that collectivism will prove to be a disaster (e.g. in my country). Therefore, thinking in a Darwinian fashion, where some philosophies die out and others, the fittest, survive, why couldn't Objectivism become THE choice?
I see your point for a short-term pessimism, but what about the long term?
To be is to be is to be.
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11-05-2009, 2:20 AM
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galtsgulcher
Joined on 03-15-2009
Posts 47
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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(Hotu wrote...)
"You've presented a very good choice. To build a refuge for liberty."
Hi Hotu,
Yes.
We (my wife and I) have already done that, but just as individuals, and not as a part of any group.
If you wait for a group of others to secure liberty for you, you'll be dead before you ever see it.
(H)
"In the same way that America was founded by people seeking freedom and prosperity, modern free men could do the same. I am thinking, specifically, in temporary secession. Imagine a state, say Texas, whose citizens embrace freedom and secede from a country that is becoming increasingly socialist. Free men from all USA will move to Texas. Similar secession movements could take place in other countries."
That is a ~very~ likely possibility...
(H)
"(In fact, I have recently explored the possibility of secession of the Northeast of Mexico, where I live. Mexican Northeast states share a common history with Texas and have for long time valued individualism over collectivism. Maybe you've heard about Monterrey, the largest city around which this particular culture and region has developed. Before the "war against drugs" started by the central government as a smoke curtain to win the people over, Monterrey was considered the safest city in Latin America only second to San Juan de Puerto Rico. In regards to per capita income, literacy and life expectancy, it is closer to Alabama than to the rest of Mexico. During the history of this region, there have been attempts to set it free and independent from Mexico.)"
That's ~very~ interesting! Monterey would be a good place to live where you have the best chance to enjoy individual freedom even though it mey not yet be established for a group or state.
Liberty comes from the inside out, and not from the outside in. My wife and made our own little Galt's Gulch by buying a small piece of raw land, clearing it, and building our own home.
(H)
"What I don't understand is why you seem to deny the possibility of a future global state holding the same principles of America. In the end of the day, many paradigms have changed throughout human history."
There simply ~aren't~ enough people who live by the the principles of America for that to take place. A far more likely outcome is a global socialist state because the vast majority of people live off of government.
I'd like to see an American Objectivist world, it's just too FAR outside of my control or responsibility...
...but what IS within my sphere of influence and my personal responsibility is everyone with whom I come into actual direct personal contact. So there is where my attention is placed.
You can make a small Galt's Gulch right where you are right now, so that you can safely weather the coming "storm" just like they did in Atlas Shrugged. Don't wait for others, There isn't enough time.
Take Care,
Greg
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11-05-2009, 2:33 AM
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galtsgulcher
Joined on 03-15-2009
Posts 47
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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(Hotu wrote...)
"We know that all socialist societies will fail eventually, and that collectivism will prove to be a disaster (e.g. in my country). Therefore, thinking in a Darwinian fashion, where some philosophies die out and others, the fittest, survive, why couldn't Objectivism become THE choice?"
It will be the ONLY choice of whoever survives, because NOTHING else works! (lol!)
(H)
"I see your point for a short-term pessimism, but what about the long term?"
While a large scale socialist collapse is inevitable, I'm extremely optimistic because we have already cut our ties to that corrupt system, and are already enjoying a good life very much like those in Galt's Gulch.
Whatever is inside of you is what makes the world within your personal sphere of influence what it is...
...anything or anybody outside of that sphere of personal responsibility belongs to the responsibilities of others.
Take Care,
Greg
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11-05-2009, 8:40 AM
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Hotu Matua
Joined on 10-30-2009
Monterrey, Mexico
Posts 10
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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Making a small Galt's Gulch right here where I am...
Those words have come to my life just in the right time. I will start working on that.
Thank you, Galtgulcher.
To be is to be is to be.
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11-09-2009, 10:46 PM
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galtsgulcher
Joined on 03-15-2009
Posts 47
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Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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You're welcome! : )
Take Care,
Greg
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The Atlas... » Ayn Rand's Idea... » General Discuss... » Re: Will American objectivists stop being "American"?
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