Re: Rational Egoism

General Discussion

Rational Egoism


logon didonai 03-16-2009, 9:14 PM
Hi folks. I'm new here.
I just finished readin Atlas Shrugged and am half way through The Virtue of Selfishness. I find the whole ordeal quite puzzling, and so I came here with the hope of finding some answers. I'm not opposed to objectivist, it just strikes me as a bizarre outlook. I have a number of concerns, and I'll present one of them in this post.

You wake up one morning to discover yourself in a strange new place. This definitely isn't your bedroom. It looks more like a hospital room. Your head hurts. Maybe you had an accident? As you start to get up, a man walks through the door wearing a white lab coat and a pair of glasses. Ah, this must be the doctor.
"What happened to me?" you ask.
Perhaps you shouldn't have asked.
The man replies, "While you were asleep last night you were drugged and kidnapped. We took a sample of your DNA, along with all of the required epigenetic material. Using a scan of your body, we created a replica. It's perfect, an atom for atom duplicate. I think you'll be impressed."
"What? Why?" you reply.
"Ah, well this is all part of the experiment. You see, in just a few hours we'll be drugging you up again. You'll be unconscious for quite some time."
"Why the heck would you do that?" you reply.
"Oh, we don't want the operation to cause you any pain. You see, we'll be doing an organ transplant. Your brain will be placed in the clones body, and his/her brain put into yours. After the two of you wake up, one will be given $1,000, a sort of thank you for your time and contributions. The other one will, of course, be terminated. We can't let you both leave, then we'd be discovered. Oh, and don't worry, we've done this countless times, and the surgery will go exactly as planned. Now, here's where you come into all this. You get to decide which body is destroyed, and which is handed the $1,000. So, take your time, think it over, and have an answer ready for us within 4 hours. Farewell."
With that the doctor (or, mad scientist?) walked away. You, being a strong objectivist, are of course concerned with being logical and rational. And, as an objectivist, you know that the rational course of action is that which will serve your interests. But, what are your interests? Which body should receive the $1,000?

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-16-2009, 11:31 PM
Hi logon,

I think Ayn wrote something about when there is a contradiction if you check your premises you'll discover that one of them is false.


Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


logon didonai 03-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Ya, the cryptic answer is all I've ever gotten for hard questions. So, let's check our premises...

A1: I ought to do X if and only if X is in my rational self interest
A2: In the logically/ physically/ technologically possible situation presented above, my brain and body will come apart.
A3: In any possible situation, there must be a definite fact of the matter regarding where I am and whether I continue to exist.

So, I checked my premises. A2 is solid. Our technology is advancing rapidly.
So, there must be a mistake regarding A1 or A3. I'm inclined to say that both are deeply suspicious, but we need not give up more than one.

But, perhaps you think A2 is the fishy one, that the objectivist principles are solid? Very well, let us consider A2*

A2*
For several decades doctors have been able to partially cure epilepsy by cutting the corpus callosum. These patients, who previously suffered from terrible seizures, are then able to go on living ordinary lives. One interesting side effect of this procedure - a procedure which cuts the bundle of nerves connecting the right and left brain - is that Righty (the right hemisphere, controlling the left side of the body) can only see out of the left eye and can only use his or her left hand. Lefty, conversely, controls the right side. The two of them communicate, but only externally.
Sometimes one hemisphere is 'dominant'. This just means it has, on balance, more specialized abilities. Sometimes there's no noticeably dominant hemisphere.

So, suppose that you are about to have this operation. When you wake up from the operation, who will you be? Where will you be? To fill in the details, let us say that Righty, for you, has better spatial reasoning, is more creative, and is better at identifying faces. Lefty is not quite as intelligent, but has fully developed Broca's and Wernicke's Areas (giving the ability for verbal communication, an ability Righty lacks), and Lefty feels a stronger attachment to your friends.

So, perhaps you dismissed A2, not wishing to consider the problem for another 30-40 years (when the technology will be available). Well, lucky for us, A2* is solid. Doctors have been splitting brains for 30-40 years already, so, in this case there'll be no evasion of reality.

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-18-2009, 12:20 PM
(logon wrote...)

"Ya, the cryptic answer is all I've ever gotten for hard questions. "

Hi logon,

The answer is quite simple...

Ths situation
you posed
is irrational.

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


logon didonai 03-18-2009, 11:28 PM
Again, the cryptic answer is all I've ever gotten. Care to explain what makes the situation irrational?
Isn't it people who are rational or irrational? I'm having a hard time understanding how a state of affairs can be intrinsically rational or irrational. Please enlighten me.

Let's consider the case of the extreme epilepsy. Is it irrational to have epilepsy? Is it irrational to have one's corpus callosum cut to prevent epileptic seizures? Is it irrational to care about personal identity?

The answers seem, quite straightforwardly, to be 1) Obviously not. 2) arguably not, 3) probably so.

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-19-2009, 2:43 AM
(logon wrote...)
"Again, the cryptic answer is all I've ever gotten. Care to explain what makes the situation irrational."

Hi logon,

Sure.

Cloning bodies and ghoulishly swapping brains is irrational and pointless... because you will not escape death when it eventually comes to lay claim to you. Trying to lenghen your life by extreme measures does not necessarily make you a better person nor does it add to the beauty or moral quality of your life.

While future technology may be all geewhizbang... it will never be a suitable substitute for morality.

The exquisite beauty of life in this world is that it ends...

...and that's just the way things are.

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


logon didonai 03-19-2009, 3:22 PM
Greg stated,
"Cloning bodies and ghoulishly swapping brains is irrational and pointless... because you will not escape death when it eventually comes to lay claim to you. Trying to lenghen your life by extreme measures does not necessarily make you a better person nor does it add to the beauty or moral quality of your life. "

You've misunderstood the case. That is, I've failed in fully communicating. This has nothing to do with cloning or ghoulish swapping. These are *real* cases.

The following link is to WebMD. Read this for the details regarding a Corpus Callosotomy.

http://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/corpus-callosotomy

The following is a video showing the behavior of a post-op split brain patient.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLzP1VCANo

The following is an article from a journal on neuroscience, NeuroReport.

http://cogprints.org/39/0/callosotomy.html


This is not science fiction, fantasy, or whimsical thinking. If you wish to address the reality, I think we can have a fruitful discussion. If you wish to dismiss medical reports, psychology experiments, and studies in neuroscience, then I doubt that we have much more to discuss.

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-19-2009, 7:40 PM
(logon wrote...)
"You've misunderstood the case. That is, I've failed in fully communicating. This has nothing to do with cloning or ghoulish swapping. These are *real* cases."

Hi logon,

That was the premise of your initial post... and doesn't make bodyswapping brains in clones or brainhacking any less ghoulish or pointless.

Since you put far more value than I do on frankenstien style medical procedures to compensate for what is physically lacking in people's lives... I believe we've gone about as far as we can go with this. I'm sorry, I just have no interest in medicine.

Maybe you can find someone here in this "virtual ghosttown" who relies on the medical profession as much as you do. I'm sure the conversation will have much more meaning for you than I could ever provide.

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


logon didonai 03-20-2009, 12:21 AM
Hmm... well I took there to be an interesting philosophical point to the studies. As best we can tell, there are two centers of consciousness in these cases. This can be seen as a simple test case, a way of determining exactly what a theory is committed to. I was curious about whether self interest tracks phenomenal connectedness or bodily integrity. Both seem entirely reasonable, it was just curiosity.

Best,

Didonai

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-20-2009, 11:32 AM
Hey logon,

No hard feelings... we're just on different wavelengths. You value science. I value ethics.

You can be confident that scientists will eventually come up with the humans to experiment on to satisfy your curiosity...

...perhaps they'll call it Project X... ; )

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


Tampico 03-21-2009, 5:52 PM

In my opinion, you have to understand objectivism in relation to collectivism.  The scenario you create must have been engineered by collectivists because you were never given a choice about being drugged and undergoing an operation.  I also think it is rare that an individual would have difficulty in assessing their own best interest.  Your example is more of the nature of having to select a choice in which consequences cannot be forseen.  Neither an objectivist or a collectivist would have enough information to make an informed decision, so the question sheds no light on objectivism. 

If you want to see objectivism in action I suggest you join a group like Neo-Swashbuckler Island (a Yahoo group).  They actually have identified a temporary Galt's Gulch and provide the longitude and latitude in their group description.  Objectivism can best be understood in real world applications.

Congrats on your willingness to learn! 

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-22-2009, 12:20 AM
Hi Tampico,

out of curiousity I read the description of Neo-Swashbuckler Island and have a few questions worthy of your consideration...

What is the difference between pirating what rightfully belongs to others at sea...

...and forcefully robbing others of their possessions on land?

Are you aware that taking the property of others has MUCH more to do with leftist socialist government...

...than it could EVER have with Objectivism.

Had you considered that there is a different and more honorable approach to making Galt's Gulch a reality...

...by which you work to CREATE the wealth to BUY your freedom...

...instead of taking it away from others like the leftist socialist parasites do?

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


Tampico 03-28-2009, 5:20 PM

Greg,

Thank you for your interest.  The difference between the Neo-Swashbucklers and looter, statist, socialist zombies is that Neo-Swashbucklers do no actually steal.  We simply joke about stealing on the high seas, we do not actually steal on the high seas. 

If we were ever to slip into piracy, we would then only privateer against socialist shipments and we would never use the police power of the state to do our pirating for us; but it is unlikely we will become real pirates unless we get our hooks on some really bad rum. 

Re: Rational Egoism


galtsgulcher 03-29-2009, 2:01 AM
Thanks... I understand now.
It's internet role playing. ; )

Take Care,

Greg

Re: Rational Egoism


Martin Lundqvist 04-11-2009, 1:35 PM

If I was in that situation, I would demand that my brain and my body remain unseperated unless it is in my self-interest to do such a sepearation. I would not have accepted to be threatened into taking a stance on something that goes against my own values, since it would be ultimately self-defeating. I think that the logical fallacy in the thought experiment is in assuming that there is a dillema, when there are in fact other solutions than the ones you present. Besides: in a truly rationally egoistic society, man would respect his fellow man's right to freedom, and the situation would not have arisen in the first place.

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