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Started by NickOtani at 06-30-2006 4:15 PM. Topic has 2 replies.

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   06-30-2006, 4:15 PM
NickOtani is not online. Last active: 3/3/2008 7:08:18 PM NickOtani

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Natural Rights, a 4th of July Post
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Teacher: According to the Declaration, what two truths are self-evident?

 

Student: All men are equal, and they all have certain unalienable rights.

 

Teacher: What does self-evident mean?

 

Student: It means that something is obvious. That a person needs no special education to understand it, that even a small child could understand it.

 

Teacher: Is it really self-evident that all men are equal and that they have certain unalienable rights?

 

Student: Well, I'm not sure grossly deformed embryos or people with little chance of surviving long without heroic efforts are the same as normal people. I'm not as sure that criminals who have violated other people's rights have the same rights as innocent people. There is a fuzzy line, but if you ask me if murdering an Australian in Australia is as significant as murdering an American from Kansas . Yes, some things are well on one side or the other of that wide fuzzy line.

 

Teacher: What does it mean that all men are created equal? Does it mean that all men can play basketball as well as Karem Abdul Jabar?

 

Student: No. I think it means people should be treated fairly, that one group should not be discriminated against while another group is given special privileges. For example, if a rich man commits a crime, then he should get the same punishment as a poor man.

 

Teacher: If it is so obvious and self-evident that all men are equal, then why do we have such a complicated court system to find out when people's rights have been violated? Why did we have to fight a war with Great Britain to prove our point? Why am I still arguing with Ed and others on this board about them?

 

Student: I think some things, as I indicated awhile ago, are not self-evident. Some things are controversial and require a great deal of education to unravel. Human beings will never have all the answers, but some things are obvious. Jefferson meant that even a child has some sense of what is right and wrong. The line gets fuzzy, but some things are definitely on one side of the line or the other. The kind of things Great Britain was doing to us were self-evidently unfair. With the Stamp Act, the Quartering Act, the Tea Act, Mercantilism, and a number of things; Great Britain was not treating us equally.

 

Teacher: Now would you like to explain that a little more for the benefit of cynics who think perhaps we are just rationalizing our actions against Great Britain , that perhaps they weren't so bad but we just put our little spin on things?

 

Student: I wouldn't like to have soldiers move into my home and require me to take care of them under the excuse that they are there for my protection? The real reason was that they did not wish to build barracks, and it was also be a good way to watch us, to make sure we say or do nothing which can be critical to the controlling government They confined our movement to this side of the Proclamation Line of 1763, even if we've already staked out land west of it and made friends with the Indians, and they exploited us for the benefit of the mother country by restricting trade through mercantilism. They were paying us for lumber and raw goods but selling it back to us as finished products at a higher price than we paid for it. Since we could not trade with others, we were basically being used as cheap labor and a captive purchasing market. Basically, we were imprisoned, slave labor, and had no freedom of speech to complain about it. Even newspapers had to be censured because they required that government stamp. Of course wealthy, white, male landowners could vote, but those who would most like to make changes were not allowed to vote. That was not a situation where the value of all humans' lives was equally respected.

 

Teacher: Okay, can you tell me what unalienable means?

 

Student: It comes from the word alien, which means strange or foreign or unnatural. If you have an alien object in your milkshake, then you have something that is not naturally there. If you feel alienated, then you feel strange, uncomfortable, or unnatural. Alienable means unnatural. Unalienable means not unnatural.

 

Teacher: Do all people have natural rights, even those people in Russia, El Salvador, Iran, China, Afghanistan, South Africa, and other places?

 

Student: Until I came to this class, I would have said no, that only people in America have natural rights. However, natural rights are human rights, necessary conditions of existence for the proper survival of human beings, and as long as people anywhere are human beings, they have natural rights. It could be that many governments are not protecting natural rights, but that does not mean people do not have these rights. They have them by virtue of being human, not by getting them from governments.

 

Teacher: Okay, we'll talk about the function of governments soon, but can you tell me first what our natural rights are according to the Declaration?

 

Student: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Teacher: Well, what does that mean? If I have a right to the pursuit of happiness, and it makes me happy to rape my neighbor's wife, then do I have a right to do that?

 

Student: No.

 

Teacher: Why not?

 

Student: Because all men are created equal and all men have equal rights, and you cannot have a right to violate somebody else's right. If we should all have the same rights, then we should have the right to do anything we want as long as we do not step on other people's toes.

 

Teacher: Do you have a natural right to medical care?

 

Student: No. Medical care is the product of somebody else's services. If I have a right to medical care, then I am making a slave out of those who provide that care, depriving someone else of the right to do what he or she wants with his or her services. Medical care is a privilege.

 

Teacher: What is the difference between a right and a privilege?

 

Student: A privilege is something somebody may give me but a right is something I can demand because it is already mine. I have a right to apply for a job, and I have a right to a job if somebody hires me. But, I do not have a right to demand that somebody hire me.

 

Teacher: What is the difference between a natural right and a legal right?

 

Student: Natural rights are, as I explained before, necessary conditions of existence for human survival. Legal rights, like the Miranda rights or the rights under the Bill of Rights, are given to us by governments to protect our natural rights.

 

Teacher: Now, according to the Declaration, what is the function of government? Why are governments formed?

 

Student: To secure or protect the natural rights.

 

Teacher: According to this, do you have a duty to your government, or does your government have a duty to you?

 

Student: I have a right to the pursuit of happiness, and the government has a duty to protect that right. This has to do with the function of the government. It is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

 

Teacher: Then why do we sometimes have things like the draft, which seems to be a violation of individual rights, and why do we pay taxes?

 

Student: It is sometimes necessary to violate some rights to protect other rights. Our government is not yet perfect, but we are aspiring to the ideals stated in the Declaration. The Declaration contains general principles, but reality is often complicated. Nevertheless, these principles give us a good idea of what to strive for.

 

Teacher: Perhaps some of the complications come from a lack of understanding by many people who are responsible for the proper functioning of our government of the principles you just explained.

From about 1781 to 1789, the newly independent Americans struggled under a weak central government called the Articles of Confederation. It was understandable that they should want a loose confederation instead of a strong central government like the one they fought, but this near anarchy also had its problems, much to the satisfaction of Great Britain . The colonists finally, by 1789, ratified the Constitution, which has been a fairly effective instrument, with safegaurds and checks and balances, for implementing the principles contained in the Declaration.

Still, the rights of black people, Indians, women, and other minorities were constantly violated. Problems did not go away. As inventions were made and industrialization got under way, civilization became ever more complex and sophisticated. The Constitution has been fairly effective at protecting individual rights but certainly not one hundred percent effective.

The model of laissez-faire capitalism seems the perfect economic system for an egoist. It is based on self-interest, the profit motive, which is suppose to make it work. The producer/industrialist/employer must appeal to the self-interest of his employees so they will continue to appeal effectively with the self-interest of consumers, and value is voluntarily exchanged for value. Theoretically, everyone is happy. If an employer does not appeal to the self-interest of employees or customers, then he or she leaves himself or herself open to competition from someone who does. Theoretically, the invisible hand of economic law regulates everything justly.

One problem with this is that too many businessmen fooled the public long enough to no longer need be concerned about appealing to the public's self-interest. They could afford to corner a market and set wages and prices anywhere they wanted, with no concern for economic law.

America's industrial history is filled with forced child labor, low wages, sweat shops, unsafe conditions, blacklisting and monopolies. Before government intervention, people were getting lung disease, blown-up, and caved-in on in the mines. In foundaries and factories, people were falling into vats of molten steel or getting their arms chopped off and ground into meat which was then sold to the public. Women were making dresses for twentyfive cents that were sold for hundreds of dollars, and then many of these women burned in the famous Triangle Factory fire.

There weren't as many employers as there were employees. It was easier for employees to get together at their cocktail lounges and organize. To protect themselves and perpetuate the class system, they formed blacklists and agreed that if one employer fired an employee, then other employers would not hire him either. They could enforce their arrangements by threatening to go to other employers to put pressure on the employer who didn't agree.

Early unions had a difficult time. There were strikes and riots and head bashings. Union leaders were called communists and thrown in jail.

Eventually, the government intervened. Early examples of government regulations were child labor laws, the Pure Food and Drug Act, the minimum wage, the anti-trust laws, and the Interstate Commerce Act. Later, when the United States was into the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt started government programs almost changing the primary function ot the government from protecting individual rights to redistributing the wealth. However, it seems that something had to be done, and it also seems some of Roosevelt 's actions worked.

Karl Marx saw all of the problems with capitalism in Europe . He accurately described how factory work alienates people and how capitalists become slaves to this non-human thing called capital. When I am involved in a transaction, when I wish to purchase a new car, then I am not interested in the person who sells me the car, and he or she is not interested in me. We each care only for material things, the non-human things.

Marx felt his philosophy was more liberating and humanistic than capitalism. It was his goal that through socialism people would learn how to live with other people in harmony, and we would, eventually, not need the government force which often disrupts more than it controls.

Marxism leaves out the profit motive which promotes productive competition, from the capitalist's point of view, and he subjugates the individual to the group. There have been problems with the application of Marxism, and there are variations of the theory of which Karl Marx would probably disapprove. However, to be honest, there are also problems with capitalism. It's not right that all people should be kept at a median level, sharing their rewards with both deserving and undeserving, but it's also not right that there are a few rich industrialists while everyone else lives in poverty.

I choose to work for capitalism, but I must be careful. When I tell the government to back off, I don't want unscrupulous employers to victimise me. I don't want thousands of people who have come to depend on government programs to be cut off. On the other hand, eventually I want to be an individual who shares his rewards with only those he chooses and is a burden to no one.

 bis bald,

 

Nick


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   07-31-2006, 12:13 AM
paine is not online. Last active: 7/30/2006 10:11:46 PM paine

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Re: Natural Rights, a 4th of July Post
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Nick.      How many times have you heard:  Yeh,  it's not perfect, Yeh, it's not what it was intended to be but the good intentions are there.  For all our faults we're still the best choice that's available in the world, and so on ad-nauseum.       At what point did we leave the stance that " In all issues one side is right and the other wrong.  That in that transfusion of blood from the good to the evil "The compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube " ?    I am  "Not ! "   my brother's keeper.  That anyone, at any time, ever, expects even survival at my expense, without my sanction, based merely on my ability to achieve that survival without that same transfusion is abhorrent to me.  I see no altruism in the roots of what was to become our nation. No debt by birth. No lien on the ability of a fellow farmer or shopkeeper.  No intrusion into the thought or intentions of an individual unless it infringed, by action, on the freedom of another to think or aspire in their own way.   Our government, our laws, the current state of affairs in all things, is not the result of those that you quote and cite, but rather of our failure to instill in those around us and our children what made us great.  That nothing, "Nothing" takes precidence over  the individual.  Though government, via it;s great power to achieve it's ends { that we gave it } is frightening,  what keeps me awake at night is the apathy towards and the ignorance of  that fact.
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   09-02-2008, 10:26 PM
David George DeLancey is not online. Last active: 11/27/2008 4:37:12 PM David George DeLancey

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Umbrella [um] Re: Natural Rights, a 4th of July Post
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9:33 P.M. E.S.T. 9-2-2008

I just got finished talking to a friend weather in knew already the evacuation of my thought was not the recommendation, though feeling and talent of knowledge i progressed with.

During the Revolution we all know how about possibly how the Quartering came to be. Perhaps time availability of familiarity, and the occasions of it, the occasions of it were just the authority to secure a foundational effort of category. Which perhaps was still in motion. Check the DeLancey faction, lots there.

The Misunderstanding of War was the set up of it, for instance many knew of something that to do, this is the availability, although another type as what was in some knowledge. Negligence of a Forming Government is it the cause. And now in sequence of leadership. Now that a seeking Leadership is in review such as George Washington as to protect the set type militia, there was also before this decade the seeking of leadership of New York Governing, the people seemed to have the upper hand. Neglect me now for i represent the DeLancey Faction, would be a fastness of approach. Seek the Livingston and DeLancey Party of New York and then the Sons Of Liberty and DeLancey and then all hell broke loose. I have already described how that was already in occurrence in which would be a great gathering of halting Agreement towards a ready to serve Government. It is just that simple. Still interesting indeed, for now the representation may continue. Yes I'm ready and set for explanation. It was Funding. Search the Albany Plan James DeLancey and the Federal Union. This venture was the approach in which during the conventions the Indians required that representatives would be needed, as to how then the Commissioners and or same Governors were not attending the Convention. At this time 1754 although the DeLancey faction was already in session and perhaps existed before even the times of 1745. So War was yet involved in Europe and William Pitt advised the Principles of King George The second and yet if not just him, to send troops hither for the protection of Canada's French and seventh nation Indian gathering, for it was time. Well the army from a foreign degree in Europe was now to take over the qualities of the trooping, in regard they did. Now funding was appropriated for this measure and , without we now stand of it, yes the massive funding. all good it was still an invention and sequence within all the properties was now a measure of characteristic. Not a union was to be agreed on, the venture of replacement was done and these representatives were to get a yearly salary. this perhaps was a start to a taxation continuance and better involvement towards a public for when many did pay a set periodical duty the people were not in this course. The beginnings were yet still in motion, until the representation of figuration, Chief Justice James DeLancey i will say had the reign of Government; And in 1760 when he passed on and at this same year King George the Second also passed on to Death, Mr. DeLancey left the DeLancey faction in the control and awareness of his Same name Son and was perhaps not noticed as a Jr. though now for the termination of settlement many were consuming a venturistic public. Search the details for the relation of War. Thank You i also may give the knowledge that the six nations wanted the seventh nation to be added to their chain belt. It perhaps was not the intention of the political party to in course the northern Indians and french to seek a gathering within a taking though that was a different though still within territory of a people , whom were to seek unfortunate feature.

If the above is a bit confusing please find a helper to gather some regards of insight, print this and squall your findings and keep of course the dates and such in course as to recognize the differences in a public at large. Yes a lot of common sense may be applied. a lot of understanding is somehow in different location believed to be what the end is. Although the initial talent of James DeLancey Sr. was to proportion a funding degree for all to represent that and is the most important thing in that world then that was not succeeded. And when the DeLancey Faction was taken over by you know who.; Authority and the capabilities were set in there or it's motion. For Mr. Livingston with some greatness though a talent for gathering many for a degree , perhaps was not settled, and through this time was the approach of a mob Mr. Livingston in which being aligned with Law ventured to New Jersey for Governing. New Jersey was a good place for the material thought of the DeLancey Faction was the Forting and capabilities of travel and do it when needed and in the course to do it in, in any challenge. Mr. Livingston did a good deed to His or with respect the course, and in such left New York with a Massive Gathered though yet still familiarity as to now keep in a vending beginning of some sort. All Good though Mr. DeLancey now after 1760 whom gathered along perhaps with others and of course the Meaning of the Sons Of Liberty. whom only wanted a 12 member group though recognized a 50 and one was added this was the person whom only out of all that would venture the signing of the Declaration of Independence. The Sons of Liberty were now to start the continuance of the Committees of Correspondences.


Yell me where is sanity, tax the rich feed the poor. Representation of the course everyone was in deed and deed is a meant word to be taxed and feed the poor is a venture of what was like up north and yet the venturistic likeness was appeared in many years and with understanding all over the frontier and territories of a Land and i said yes land for a province or country was not to be meant for the time was of the people and the land. And there is why the freedom was expressed in an individual to seek i almost said somehow, for if i was lessened in the er ea my Family would perhaps reprimand me, as usual. Well I tried to vulture much here for a vocation was intended indeed.

MY topics of study are. Art Economics History

And belief that the time in which has been explained as the Revolution is just a Misunderstanding. Be brave courageous and seek why my position in this society needs to be as my Ancestors were is of greatness and yes there is a definition to complete. My studies started at mid 2005. My Qualification started very young have the want of President as a child and growing through time still what would change, although in definition of an article or document in 1986 and same again in 1992 both in regards to the Presidency official my decision continues.

And now ther's the commputer.

O here's a great tune seem to have forgot the title So you think your a romeo playing a part in a picture takee the long way home. Shreing is wonderfull. Thank You for reveiwing my Art Economics History.

Till Next Time 10:25 P.M. E.S.T. 9-2-2008
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