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11-30-2007, 2:21 PM requiem Joined on 12-01-2007 Posts 8 Altruism: how can I explain it? In the past year I've fallen inlove with randian philosophy. I try to explain the primary points of Objectivism but I can't correctly explain the 'mauvais' aspect of altuism. I know what the philosophy is saying, but I can't seem to explain how bad it is. Can anybody please give a footnotes version of 'how to explain altruism'? Thanks for your time! Dan    Report

12-01-2007, 11:55 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? <BLOCKQUOTE><table width="85%"><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">In the past year I've fallen inlove with randian philosophy. I try to explain the primary points of Objectivism but I can't correctly explain the 'mauvais' aspect of altuism. I know what the philosophy is saying, but I can't seem to explain how bad it is. Can anybody please give a footnotes version of 'how to explain altruism'? Thanks for your time! Dan</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE> I can imagine what you are going though, Dan. You are trying to explain Rand’s philosophy to people who think that altruism is equivalent to being moral; that selfishness or egoism is evil. They’ve been taught that man is born into sin and must deny himself to be saved. One should not ask what is in it for one’s self but what one can do for others. Am I right? It’s interesting that you use the French word ‘mauvais’ to indicate ‘bad’. It is also used in Sartre’s Existentialism when he talks about ‘mauvaise foi’, or ‘bad faith’, which really means ‘inauthenticity’ or ‘self-deception’. I think there is an element of this, ‘inauthenticity’ or ‘self-deception’, in altruism. One isn’t really living for one’s self. One is subjugating one’s self to another or others. It is like the Black actor who plays Amos and Andy parts to please White people rather than play the parts he really wants to play. It is like J. Alfred Profrock, who is more concerned with how people will think of him than he is with confronting a lady with his honest feelings of love for her. It is not being true to one’s self, and this is not good. I once worked at a German prison where American military people were incarcerated for braking German laws. I taught a class funded through The Department of the Army for these confined Americans. One day, we received a visit from an Educational Services Officer from a near-by Military Base. He was rumored to be a very religious man who was sort of stuffy and a bit afraid of groups like the prisoners at Wittlich. Never-the-less, he did enter our classroom and addressed the class. He said the reason the program existed was because of our Judeo-Christian ethic, and that was all he said. Well, I and my students felt as if we’d been slapped in the face. It was as if he had told us that he’d rather be visiting some more traditional educational program for military students, but the prison program existed because of altruism, it was a duty rather than an honor for him to be there. Hey, if I am in jail or in a hospital, I’d rather receive visits from people who want to see me for selfish reasons, because there is something about me which makes them happy when they are with me. I don’t want to be visited by people who would rather be someplace else but are there out of some altruistic duty. Now, it is true that one may selfishly want to promote another’s self-interest. This is not altruism. When Sydney Carton went to the guillotine to make his lady happy, it was a selfish act, not altruism Yes, I’m also aware of the view that all motivated action is selfish. It is psychological egoism. Even if we do things for others, we do it because we want to. So, egoism and altruism are just meaningless terms. However, there are those people who are insufficiently hypocritical and feel guilty when they are happy and try to deny themselves. There are people like those Black actors who try to please their audience rather than themselves. There are J. Alfred Prufrocks, and there are people like the Educational Services Officer who visited my prison class. They are inauthentic. They are in mauvaise foi. They are not living their lives honestly, and that’s what is bad about not living for one’s self. If there is not a heaven or hell, and this is our only life; it’s pretty bad not to live it for ourselves, to subjugate it to others, to put their happiness and self-interest above ours. bis bald, Nick    Report

12-08-2007, 7:27 PM requiem Joined on 12-01-2007 Posts 8 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? Nick, That was the explanation that I have been looking for. Thank you. As far as your prison experience... I understand what you mean when u said: it was a slap in the face. i would rather have someone there who wanted to see me bc i make them happy rather than them doing it to make me happy. That logic makes so much sense. why be there if it's not making you happy?! Thanks for the help! Question: have you read the Ominous Parallels? I'm in the process of reading it now and it is incredible!    Report

12-08-2007, 7:43 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? Thanks, requiem. I have read the Ominous Parallels and am not as impressed with it as you are. Peikoff is not very knowledgeable about the philosophers of whom he speaks. I commented on some of his quotes in my Alice series, from part seven on. bis bald, Nick    Report

12-14-2007, 8:13 PM requiem Joined on 12-01-2007 Posts 8 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? It's interesting that this came up because I am currently writing a response to a Kantian and basing some of my points on my readings in that book. What would you say in response to "what men perceive is not reality as it is but merely as it appears to man". Implying that reality is somehow not real (apparently a kantian idea). Or the fact that Peikoff states that Kant believes that reason, logic and science are denied access to reality therefore "we" can approach reality in a nonrational manner (faith in a high being....which yes, kant does attempt to protect).  From my limited knowledge of Kant, doesn't he say that rationality is our supreme good? As always, thanks for your knowledge. Dan.    Report

12-14-2007, 9:21 PM requiem Joined on 12-01-2007 Posts 8 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? I've actually done some searching through the website and found responses that answer these questions. Thanks anyway.    Report

05-06-2008, 7:57 PM solo Joined on 08-08-2007 Posts 16 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? Rand points out that altruism means sacrafice, and that this in turn means the trading of what is valuable for what is not. It is immediately obvious from this reduction that altruism makes human existence impossible. It is this point that you must make clear to others when explaining the "mauvais" of altruism. Hearing this, they will of course then try to show that altruism actually leads not to destruction, but to benefit. However, this can not be true. The only way some value can be found in altruistic acts is by misapplying this notion to selfish acts. Normally, this takes the form of considering only what is being given up and ignoring what is being gained. And here you must be ready to point out their mistake. For example, it might be said that earning a four year college degree requires a great deal of sacrafice. Earning this degree does requires given up much of one's time and energy, however after acquiring it a much better job may be had, and weighing the four years required to earn the degree against the much higher earning potential of the better job makes it quite clear that this is in fact, not an altruistic act, but a selfish one. In general, when explaining or debating the principles of Objectivism to others, or unraveling your own confusions, if you simply start with the basic definitions and go forward from there you should have little problem making a clear explanation and proving your point.    Report

07-30-2008, 10:32 PM Donovan A. Joined on 07-23-2008 Dallas, TX Posts 6 Re: Altruism: how can I explain it? Hi Dan, I'd like to add a few points to the discussion. Altruism demands that in order to justify living you need others. That man is not an end in himself but a means to the ends of others. Most people confuse benevolence, acts of kindness and goodwill with altruism. In reality it is altruism that makes benevolence impossible. To demonstrate the irrationality of altruism it is important to show that a person cannot live by consistently applying such a principle as self-sacrifice. In every situation it becomes a moral duty to not consider one's self. Instead of feeding yourself you should in fact give up your food. Altruism demands that morally you should give up your home, your car, everything that you need to survive. Ayn Rand responded to altruism by saying "what's wrong with committing suicide." The absurdity of altruism is that it is moral to give things up, but not immoral to receive. If it is honorable to be a slave, how can it be honorable to be a master at the same time? It is important to remind people that Objectivism rejects the false dichotomy of sacrifice. Ayn Rand rejects the concept that the only two options open to man are living as a slave or as a master. It is important to highlight that Objectivism embraces the trader principle i.e. where people exchange value for value without sacrifice on either part. "Reason is man's means of survival. Master the art of reasoning and you can gain independence. Through independence you can gain self-esteem. Through self-esteem you can achieve great happiness." - Donovan.A    Report

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