The Atlas Society Forums

Search Sort Posts:  Oldest to newest Newest to oldest

01-06-2008, 7:08 PM Bobo Joined on 01-07-2008 Posts 6 Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like I have a question. Suppose you like someone and you know the qualities that they are attracted to, such as being popular, social, confident, physically strong, etc. Also, suppose you were to acquire the traits that this person found attractive for the purpose of having this individual reciprocate your interest and desire. What is the objectivist's view on this action?    Report

01-07-2008, 11:17 AM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like I think it is okay to respect the sensitivities of others as long as you are not selling yourself out. If people you like appreciate being around people with good manners, then it’s not wrong for you to respect that. Certainly you should not treat others in ways you would not want them to treat you. You should not violate their rights, even if you want to. However, at some point you have to ask yourself if you are living your life to please yourself or only this other person or these other people. If you are sacrificing your own interests to please them, you may be selling out. It would be like a Black actor who loves to do serious parts but does stereotypical comedy just to please White audiences. It would be better to please yourself first and thereby please those who appreciate you for who you are, not just a hollow person who lives only by other people’s standards.   bis bald,   Nick    Report

01-07-2008, 5:45 PM Bobo Joined on 01-07-2008 Posts 6 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like Just to make sure, you're saying that an objectivist would be fine with conforming to the standards of others if he/she satisfies a desire-such as receiving reciprocation from another person? Or is appealing to the standards of others only permissible if you agree with those standards, and not for the possible benefit you may receive from such conformity?    Report

01-07-2008, 10:56 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like I thought I was very clear. You do not live primarily for others. You live for yourself. You do not conform to the standards of others other than to respect their sensitivities and rights. The other day, I saw the naked cowboy on television. He was making a court appearance and wanted to appear in his underwear, like he does in New York City. The judge, however, requested that he respect the dignity of the court and conform to her standards. He had to put a coat on. I think this was right, even if it was a small compromise in his freedom of self-expression. Things sometimes work better if we understand certain conventions and follow them, not just rebel to be different. However, there does come a time when simply following convention or following pre-existing standards is simply going through the motions, not being true to one's self or authentic. One must use one's judgment, but the standard should always be one's own rational self-interest, not that of someone else. One's attraction to someone else should be a reflection of one's own values in that other person, not a sacrifice of one's own values for the values of that other person. BTW, I speak here for myself, and I am not an Objectivist. However, I think most Objectivists would agree with me. People who live by their own standards are people like Howard Roark or William Ernest Henley. People who live by other people's standards are people like Peter Keating or J. Alfred Prufrock. bis bald, Nick    Report

01-07-2008, 11:37 PM Bobo Joined on 01-07-2008 Posts 6 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like The problem I'm having is over the definition of rational self-interest. For example, in the scenario I first presented, you would be conforming to standards for the purpose of your own interest-- which would be getting a partner. So, is this an example of a rational self interest, or is it something else?    Report

01-08-2008, 9:46 AM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like The ultimate or intrinsic goal of a rational egoist is flourishing survival, not just "getting a partner." The rational egoist would consider qualitative as well as quantitative pleasures, and living authentically would be a qualitative pleasure, important for flourishing survival. I don't see what your problem is. I think you are twisting my words and being a little obtuse. I'm saying pursue your own rational self-interest authentically and respect the rights of others to do the same. It would not be in my rational self-interest to "get a partner" who does not reflect my values. Therefore, I don't sacrifice my own standards to conform to another's. I want a partner who wants me for who I am and shares my standards naturally. Neither of us should be phony and try to live by the other's standards but not our own. bis bald, Nick    Report

01-10-2008, 3:29 PM marantaz Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 19 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like Bobo, if you 'acquire' those traits for the purpose of attracting one individual, how often are you going to change yourself to suit the other person?  That person will change over time, will you continue to evolve yourself in order to maintain that persons interest?  If so, it won't be a life your are leading, it will be an existence of being led, and I would think, Objectivist or not, it's not something anyone should do. I'm not as well read or educated as some here, but I think I'm also not so convoluted in my thinking that I can't give a simple answer to a simple question... but there seems to be more to your question, considering your follow up comments.  What is the real issue in your question, are you truly just interested in someone, or is there some grander concept or flaw in Objectivism that you are trying to discern?    Report

01-10-2008, 9:54 PM Bobo Joined on 01-07-2008 Posts 6 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like Well, I don't know much about Objectivism, which is why I asked my original question. From the little that I know, I find some complications, which is why I couldn't solve this question on my own, since I didn't know enough about the philosophy. My problem is that I lack a more concrete and thorough understanding of the line drawn between acting for your rational self-interest and simply acting in your interest. In the scenario I presented earlier, the aim was to have someone you liked. However, you had to conform to certain standards in order to achieve this. I wanted to know if an Objectivist would approve, and if not, then on what conditions? For example, suppose you also like the same values and traits that the person you're infatuated with likes. Will acquiring those traits then be permissible since you also wish to have these traits regardless(atleast to some extent) of whether or not you receive reciprocation from such acquisition? However, it gets complicated for me because it's difficult to draw the line between what is your own and what belongs to others. Because influence from your environment is almost always present. So, if you desire certain traits, it may not be specifically for some external benefit, such as a partner, but the trait may be appealing to you through conditioning from your environment. I know I'm not being very clear. I should give some examples, but my mind isn't in order at the moment.    Report

01-11-2008, 1:09 PM marantaz Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 19 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like Bobo, first, you have to be secure about yourself and what/who you are.  An 'infatuation' with another person is not healthy.  If you are comfortable with yourself, then, when you meet someone who is, let's say, more appealing to you than anyone else you've ever met or known, it is still up to that person to acknowledge you, accept you, and be willing to share themselves with you.  You can proclaim your affection/desire/love for that person, but it is still their right to reject your advances; nothing you do can change their mind, nor should you do anything, such as in the example you gave, to try to change their mind.  Having similar likes and dislikes is probably a good starting point; it will, in the long run, be a stronger foundation upon which to build a relationship than physical appearance, certainly.  But altering yourself to appeal to another betrays your self and their ability to trust that you are who you appear to be. Now, if you profess your love for another, and you tell them that regardless of how they feel towards you, you will always love them, and that they are free to use/abuse your love for them however it may please them, then you're accepting subservience to their will, and that would make you a weak person.  If that is what you want to be, I guess that's your choice, but I think we've had enough examples throughout history of where that kind of thinking takes us.  It's not recommended for the individual, and it's tragic for a society.  As for the influence of your environment, the short and not too sweet answer is, you adapt, or you die.  Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines here, or maybe not enough; what is yours is yours, basically, what you were born with and what you've acquired through your endeavors, assuming they were legitimate and legal; no person is yours, as it is their choice to join with you; the traits you desire are not traits that are influenced by the environment you are in but are the traits you wish to acquire to alter your existence in that environment; it may be necessary to acquire those traits in order to survive, but it may not be possible, either, in which case, you either move to a more livable environment, or you find another way to make life livable in that environment, or you cease to live.  Now, if this is about relationships, ending your existence because of not being able to get someone to like you is silly, as no persons preferences should determine whether you want to go on living.  If this is about learning how to cope with and understand others... again, be secure and happy in your self, and don't worry about the rest.  Some people just can't be understood, and reasoning with them is futile. I don't know if this would comply with some of the Objectivist experts view of life, love and relationships, but it's how I've lived.    Report

04-07-2008, 11:28 PM Kraig Joined on 04-03-2008 Posts 3 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like Your question is really quite simple. You asked if there was any difference between a person's "rational" self-interest and their plain old sef-interest - there is none. However, a better way to define it would be "your rational self-interest, to the extent of your knowledge." Your dilema here is not a question of who is the better objectivist, but perhaps who is more knowledgable in relationships.    Report

04-19-2008, 11:05 AM David George DeLancey Joined on 07-06-2007 Posts 48 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like 10:49 A.M. E.S.T. 4-19-2008 May I Help May I Help, First off i am now going to involve the number of Objectivist-ing accounts, perhaps done by all of the above included me though read it carefully, first one from me am i asuming' could it be you are an Actor if so then a # Objectivisting matter would of not thoroughly reading the situation thoroughly perhaps reading between the lines or through time just getting to know the one. #2 Objectivistment would be all the Negative opinions though hang on, almost all of them in which you can see are worthy of some kind of Knowledge, Granted i did read the hole matter and a couple or a few times ok i did almost post my setting without thoroughly investing in it, which then allowed me of an Objectivism. #3 Objectivistment here among this posting would be the Assuming that has been going on perhaps by all or atleast 3/4, leaving the Objectivism to now for the research. I may conclude now is a true confermation though it is noe reccomended for you to share if or not you are indeed an actor and let me allow myself to recognise to you i noticed this right of the start oops begining and perhaps was when you did not get an opropriate answer and was indeed the one after your first posting, ofcourse because that was a sure beliefe though this is just my opinion, by the way if it is so it is for sure an excellent challenge by now i am not sure if i want to say Thank you though without your confirmation on it all's well that End's Well. Till next Time. 11:03 A.M.    Report

04-19-2008, 2:25 PM solo Joined on 08-08-2007 Posts 16 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like This act would be immoral by Objectivist standards. The reason is that Objectivism requires that one function entirely by one's own mind, and thus one's own judgment is sovereign in all matters. The contradiction to Objectivist standard in this example arises from the acceptance of traits because someone else has chosen/attained them. If however, you identified these various traits and judged them with your own mind to be things that were in your own interest to possess and then pursued them, no contradiction would exist. The essential here is: Are you functioning through the use of your own mind or someone else's?    Report

07-30-2008, 1:37 AM Donovan A. Joined on 07-23-2008 Dallas, TX Posts 6 Re: Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like "I have a question. Suppose you like someone and you know the qualities that they are attracted to, such as being popular, social, confident, physically strong, etc. Also, suppose you were to acquire the traits that this person found attractive for the purpose of having this individual reciprocate your interest and desire. What is the objectivist's view on this action?" I am not sure exactly what you are asking? It seems like you are asking: is it acceptable to adopt the values of someone else so they will like you because you like them. I would start off by asking why do you like such a person? Do you think their values should be yours? If this other person likes someone that is physically fit and you think they will like you if you become fit, you will need to decide if you think you should assume this value. Relationships are conditional. Therefore, each person does set standards and those standards are contextual. I am willing to say that some values are optional and some are not. I do not think that you should adopt a value just because someone will like you for doing so. I would begin by asking; what are proper values, which values are optional and what exchange is appropriate between two people who are interested in each other. Objectivists look to the facts of reality to determine their values, they do not look to people. A person that looks to others to establish his values is dangerously close to adopting the psychology of a social metaphysician. "Reason is man's means of survival. Master the art of reasoning and you can gain independence. Through independence you can gain self-esteem. Through self-esteem you can achieve great happiness." - Donovan.A    Report

The Atlas... » Ayn Rand's Idea... » General Discuss... » Objectivist's view on appealing to those you like

(please select) Forums Home |- Search Forums |- Active Topics |- Unanswered Posts User Options |- Sign In |- Join this community |- Forgot Password Ayn Rand's Ideas |- General Discussion Ayn Rand's Novels |- Atlas Shrugged |- The Fountainhead |- We The Living |- Anthem |- Short Stories and Plays Ayn Rand's Films |- We The Living |- The Fountainhead |- Love Letters |- You Came Along |- Atlas Shrugged Special Interest |- Meet Members |- My Favorite Rand Character |- My Favorite Rand Passage |- If You Like Rand, You'll Like... Summer Seminars |- Summer Seminar 2007 |- Summer Seminar 2008 University Place and PSU