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08-20-2007, 10:55 AM Alan Hudges Joined on 08-20-2007 Posts 3 Looking for some compass to find my way. Hello people of atlas society, i am a reader of Ayn Rand's philosophy. Objectivist philosophy explains about the man's desire to achieve and to grow. I generally find it very logical and inspiring. but there is something which i could not find about myself or from the writings of ayn rand. it is a personal situation. i don't feel my-self motivated to do anything for my life. i mean i do neccessary things to survive, and i also have education apportunities to have a better carrer, but at the end these things seem to be not enough for me. i always think like i will be small at the end. is there some objectivist text/idea which is about personal talents , carreer ways and stuff. i know i am talented, i am smart , but i became a lazy ass since i started having higher ideals and standarts.    Report

08-20-2007, 12:35 PM Josh Joined on 10-29-2006 Posts 67 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. I can relate Alan. I am the same way. I feel like I have great potential but compared to others I am not that great. However, I am trying to get used to making myself the standard. I need to be the ruler to which things are measured. Not what others think or say. The more i get to know people the more I realize only about half of what they say is true, especially when it comes to accomplishments. But don't try to measure up to others, you are the only standard to which you can measure things. I say this because you don't want to be small in the end. Small compared to what? A better goal for "the end" would be are you happy? That is the ultimate goal for eveyone. A "flourishing survival" as the great Nick Otani puts it. I'm sure he will respond to this post as well, but i just thought i'd pitch in my 2 cents. Hope you find what it is you are looking for!    Report

08-20-2007, 3:41 PM Pelagius Joined on 08-14-2007 Posts 4 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Hey Alan, Sorry to hear about your struggle. What kinds of things do you like to do? You working? going through a mid-life crisis, the raging hormones of puberty? What kind of conversation can we start to get your juices flowing, and on to bigger and better things... or if you are a microbioligist, smaller and better things!      Report

08-20-2007, 4:05 PM Alan Hudges Joined on 08-20-2007 Posts 3 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. hey, first of all thanks you guys very much for responding, I was expecting to wait a few days to read something new on my topic. I am 26 with a bachelor degree in economics. and working in a small software company to earn my life and to learn something more. I always find technology interesting. but it seems like i am not giving myself too hard to my job(programming) . several times i am thinking of changing my carrer way to something else. (for example , banker, stock broker, writer, artist..) for some reasons. it is difficult to say that i am not talented. I have interest to philosophy and social sciences and also technical things. I am restless and uncomfortable because I always feel like , I am not using my potential to be productive and to live a better life.    Report

08-22-2007, 3:12 AM youngmastermatt Joined on 06-15-2007 Idaho Posts 14 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Hello Alan! Remember that movie Office Space (love that one) where the lead character is musing about his life the same way you are now? He brings out every high school guidance counsiler's favorite saying: Suppose you had a million dollars and didn't have to work?  That's the thing you should go do. On a personal note, I myself have tried several paths, and I'm only 25. I come from a family where all of my aunts and uncles (and my mother especially) all decided what they wanted to do in the 5th grade and made that their career. Along the way, they met their spouses, had 2.4 kids, the white picket fence, and bought the minivan at exactly the scheduled time. I am routinely asked why I have not only not settled on a career, and I am often required to justify the fact that I am single and don't want kids (both capital offenses here in Southern Idaho). The point is that it's ok to not know what you want to do with your life. It looks like you have a wide variety of interests- there's no reason why you can't pursue them all, in order of their interest to you. Career changes are common, and many adults clear into their '60s enroll in college to further educate themselves. You don't sound de-motivated or like a slacker. If you were, you would have never finished college. :-) And let me say welcome to the boards! -Matt          Report

08-22-2007, 12:25 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Okay, I’m “the great Nick Otani,” as Josh puts it. However, I don’t think I have much more to contribute than what others are saying. It’s common for people to go through the kind of periods you are describing, even if it seems like well-adjusted people don’t. Elvis Presley seemed to have it all, good looks, talent, recognition, and money; everything we all strive for, yet he wasn’t happy. He wanted more. It’s the Richard Corey syndrome. If these people are unhappy, what chance do the rest of us have?   Well, sometimes we find a cause or choose a project which gives our lives meaning. We see this in literature too.  One aspect of the Merchant of Venice is the mysterious depression Antonio mentions at the beginning of the play. Portia also has a depression when we first see her. These depressions are really not developed in the play, and the characters seem to snap out of them as the play progresses. We can only surmise, in light of current psychology, what these depressions are all about. I think it’s the Richard Cory syndrome. Antonio is a successful gentleman who has everything. Perhaps he has no more goals, nothing else to make his life meaningful. He is bored. Portia is also a wealthy and beautiful person. She has no challenges, no current projects over which she must worry. She has skills but no place to use them. She is bored. It’s when things start happening that their depressions disappear. They get involved in projects that give their lives meaning. Antonio puts his life on the line for Bassaino. Now, his life has purpose. It is more exciting. Portia also captures Bassaino and devotes her services to him. This gives her life purpose and an outlet for her skills. There is a quote on boredom attributed to Soren Kierkegaard in “Either/Or”: The gods were bored, and so they created man. Adam was bored because he was alone, and so Eve was created. Thus boredom entered the world, and increased in proportion to the increase of population. Adam was bored alone; then Adam and Eve were bored together; then the population of the world increased, and the people were bored en masse. To divert themselves they conceived the idea of constructing a tower high enough to reach the heavens. This idea is itself as boring as the tower was high, and constitutes a terrible proof of how boredom gained the upper hand.   So this boredom is a muse. It starts things. It gets the ball rolling. It’s what we have before we choose projects and give our lives purpose. Sydney Carlton, in Dickens’ Tale of Two Cities, also finds a way to give his life meaning when he gives his life for another: "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known." Antonio was facing death, but death as a martyr for his friend would have been more meaningful than just fading away as someone who accomplishes nothing and won’t be remembered. If we are going to die anyway. We may as well die for a good purpose. Of course Antonio didn’t die. He was saved by Portia. He share much in common with Portia. Not only did they both have a depression they overcame, they also had a bond from which they had to get free. Portia had the bond of her father’s lottery, and Antonio had the bond of Shylock’s contract with him. This play does have many other areas of interest, but I think this essay address something that has been a concern for many, the reason for the depressions of Antonio and Portia. bis bald, Nick    Report

08-22-2007, 12:49 PM Josh Joined on 10-29-2006 Posts 67 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. See what I mean by "The Great Nick Otani?"    Report

08-22-2007, 4:28 PM Alan Hudges Joined on 08-20-2007 Posts 3 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Matt and Nick, many thanks to both of you for your writings. Matt, it's an interesting idea to imagine that i would have a million dollar, and choose the thing what i can do. obviously ii did not have that chance of having such counseling. i will try it. but this pattern seems to bring me to the way that i would really like to do without thinking about money. this could be an idea. this may help a person to find something which never make him bored. i will try it. but on the other hand until i make this million my mindset should be different that , me after having a million. I dont have a millon at the moment. i will try to imagine. maybe i will find a joyful job which brings me ti success. Nick, I found the meaining of life story that you mentioned. although the motivation was differernt. because i feel not bored at the moment . but i feel like i can do something more. and be more productive. I am restless. because hundrets of ideas are coming to my mind. then sometimes i stop and say , if you have that much visions if you are that clever why dont you use/test them so that you can see if its working. and maybe speak speak less with myself. I have a question. it's an example that i experienced yesterday morning. the day before i had somany ideas about a big project and i started to draw a plan worked on that a little etc. then i went to sleep, when i wake up in the morning, i thougt that i wasted my time the day before with stupid dreams. and i thought i should do what i have to do first. maybe i thought that it was too big for me ,that project, and it was never doable for me. or at the end it will be a rubbish and never be sold. So i may catch a logic and balance among the feelings. and i think there should be something crucial about this situation in the objectivist philosopy. sorry i am writing too long. a nice story of Ayn Rand. Fountainhead. Howard Roark was doing this buildings for himself , the were all state of art and best of him. but at the same time somebody was demanding this beautiful buildings because of aesthetic reasons. the point there was that there were some people with power thinking that the majority of people would not like what he does. so balances these supply and demand relationship in the market? if i can solve this problem. i think i can find my way to do something motivating, valueable.    Report

08-22-2007, 6:41 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. maybe i thought that it was too big for me ,that project, and it was never doable for me. or at the end it will be a rubbish and never be sold. I'm sure Rand thought, when she first started Atlas Shrugged, that it was too big a project. It was over a thousand pages with fine print. However, she started with the first page and then the second and so forth. Eventually she finished it. Sometimes my high school students have to write an essay and they can't get started. They look at a blank sheet of paper for a long time, or a blank Word Document on their computer screen. Perhaps they write a sentence or two and then delete them and start over. After hours go by, they still have not advanced beyond the first few sentences. I've also seen kids freeze on the top of a high dive. They stand there and look down. The longer they contemplate jumping, the harder it is for them. It would be easier if they just went ahead and did it. Some projects are like getting a giant ball rolling. Once it starts, it picks up momentum and gets easier to push along. It's the same with writing. If we just start writing something, we slip into a zone and it gets real easy. Then, we can go back over it and fix the problems. However, sometimes the quickly written essay that flows is better than the painstaking paper that a student tried to make perfect with the first try and started and stopped and started again. Well, what do I know? I tried to get going on a project too. I wanted to get a scholarship to get a graduate degree in philosophy and be a college philosophy teacher. The Atlas Society Graduate Scholarship Committee, though, decided I wasn't good enough. So, my goals are also thwarted. Hey, you want to go jump off a bridge with me? bis bald, Nick    Report

08-27-2007, 3:21 PM solo Joined on 08-08-2007 Posts 16 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. I have read all of Rand's work and I can not remember finding anything about career selection.  She writes only about how to deal with reality in philosophical, and thus very general, terms, and does little in the way of applications.  So I can not point you to a Rand quote.  I believe that one's proper career is determined by one's genetic identity.  For this reason, there are things that are right for you and other things which aren't, and neither is open to choice.  Thus, career selection reduces to self knowledge, and thus introspection.  You may observe that the same principle which derives the Objectivist Ethics, which is that man must act in accordance to his nature in order to survive, derives also his career choice.  If you can't envision the correct choice, you may need to experience more things to create a larger data base for a selection.  You might check your thoughts and see to what they tend to gravitate (and this is things besides sex) as your subconscious may trying to point you to something, saying in effect "you should do this." In Reason, Solo    Report

08-27-2007, 3:38 PM Pelagius Joined on 08-14-2007 Posts 4 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Hello Solo, Have you read a Rand book called _the virtue of selfishness_? If you have and happen to still have the book. I am looking for some help. Apparently she lists in the beginning some "concretes" or some what I am guessing are "assumptions" that the rest of the book will build on. Is there any way that you can post me a list of these "concreates"?    Report

08-27-2007, 4:30 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Career selection from Objectivist Literature Here are some quotes about career choices from Rand and Peikoff:                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Here       Playboy Interview, 1964 Copyright (c), PLAYBOY PLAYBOY: In your opinion, is a woman immoral who chooses to devote herself to home and family instead of a career? RAND : Not immoral -- I would say she is impractical, because a home cannot be a full-time occupation, except when her children are young. However, if she wants a family and wants to make that her career, at least for a while, it would be proper -- if she approaches it as a career, that is, if she studies the subject, if she defines the rules and principles by which she wants to bring up her children, if she approaches her task in an intellectual manner. It is a very responsible task and a very important one, but only when treated as a science, not as a mere emotional indulgence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why I Like Stamp Collecting Minkus Stamp Journal, 1971   A career requires the ability to sustain a purpose over a long period of time, through many separate steps, choices, decisions, adding up to a steady progression toward a goal. Purposeful people cannot rest by doing nothing nor can they feel at home in the role of passive spectators. They seldom find pleasure in single occasions, such as a party or a show or even a vacation, a pleasure that ends right then and there, with no further consequences.   From the Website of Leonard Peikoff, Posted August 15, 2007      There is no formula, however, by which to find the personally fulfilling career, the one which is right for you. Some people know their passion early in youth—e.g., Ayn Rand and Howard Roark. Some people need many more years, as I did. Some (honest) people search, but never do find it. I think you have two options at this point: Define as specifically as you can any aspect of life or the world in which you are interested—medicine, soccer, color, stars, gardening, whatever. If it is a real interest of yours, not yet a career passion but something that does involve and absorb you now and then; and if you have no other competing interests of similar strength, then my advice is to commit to that one as a career. Learn, continually expand your ability, start accomplishing something in the field that makes you feel efficacious, proud, happy; which will be the motor propelling you to greater heights in the field and a greater sense of fulfillment. Once a man becomes good at something, he starts to like it, and that makes him want to get even better at it, etc. This is one path: a “mere interest” can be developed across time into a highly pleasurable life. If you can find no such interest and are completely at sea, but actually do want a career, then I would advise you simply to jump in anywhere; pick anything practicable, at least minimally so, on any simple grounds such as money, location, employer, etc. If you pick something you don’t mind or at least don’t hate and you work at it as above, I think your chances are reasonable, though not great, of turning it eventually into a real career. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   bis bald,   Nick     Report

08-28-2007, 1:18 AM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. Have you read a Rand book called _the virtue of selfishness_? If you have and happen to still have the book. I am looking for some help. Apparently she lists in the beginning some "concretes" or some what I am guessing are "assumptions" that the rest of the book will build on. Is there any way that you can post me a list of these "concreates"? I don't think you are looking for "concretes". Concretes are not assumptions the rest of Rand's philosophy is built on. You may be looking for the three axiomatic concepts of existence, identity, and consciousness. She builds her philosophy on these, not on concretes. bis bald, Nick        Report

08-28-2007, 4:04 PM solo Joined on 08-08-2007 Posts 16 Re: Looking for some compass to find my way. The "concretes" you are looking for are the axioms from which the philosophy is derived.  The fundamental axiom is the existence axiom, "existence exists."  From this two corollary axioms follow, the first that a reality exists which is perceived by consciousness and the second that a consciousness exists which perceives reality.  These axioms were found by Rand.  They imply other corollary axioms from which the Objectivist Ethics is derived.  The first corollary implies the existence of entities, and thus identity and causality, the second implies the existence of a living being, with free will and thus no preexisting instincts or values, and together a causative connection between.  Under these first principles, The Objectivist Ethics then follows as the derivation of how man should act to sustain his life. In the first essay in the Virtue of Selfishness entitled "The Objectivist Ethics,"  Rand points out the purpose of morality, defines its standard of value, which is life, and defines the nature of human consciousness, then defines basic virtues of selfishness, rationality, productiveness, etc., the purpose of government and Capitalism as the economic system which follows from all this.  She does not take this down from the existence axiom as I have here, but starts with the existence of life as a first principle, and so this connection will be hard for a newbie to see.  "Concrete" is a term Rand used for any existing physical thing.  I do not believe there is any reference to this in her derivation of Objectivist Ethics. In Reason, Solo.       Report

08-28-2007, 7:37 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Existence, Identity, and Consciousness from Alice in Objectivist Land, part two: “Well,” said The Mad Hatter, “the Objectivist theory of knowledge is something like an edifice based on three self-evident axioms which Objectivists claim all humans know as soon as they become aware.”   “Oh, I know that,” chirped Alice. “as soon as they become conscious of something that exists, they have to know that existence exists and that they are conscious of it, so consciousness also exists. And, existence is identity. It is A is A, and all the other laws of logic, to include causation, which they claim is the law of identity applied to action.”   “Yes,” said The Mad Hatter. “even though causation is inductive while the other laws are deductive and tautologies. And they don’t have to prove all this. They simply say it is self-evident and axiomatic. These principles are used in any other proofs, and even to deny them requires their use. One has to exist to deny existence, for example.”   “That reminds me of Descartes’ Cogito Ergo Sum.” Said Alice, “To contemplate his own existence, even to deny it, he has to exist. So, ‘I think, therefore I am’.”   “Yes,” said The Mad Hatter. “But that is a rationalistic premise which is, itself, a deductive argument proving one’s own existence. The Objectivists hate it because it denies existence, the existence of existence. And it disregards sensory perception, in which Objectivists hold knowledge must be grounded. Descartes’ Cogito, they say, is like Plato’s forms. It is a floating abstraction.”   “Okay,” said Alice, “so Objectivists are not rationalists. Are they empiricists?”   “No,” The Red Queen interjected. “they don’t recognize the rationalist/empiricist dichotomy. They claim all knowledge is derived by reason grounded in sense perception. Objective reality must exist first. Then, abstractions can be formed by applying reason to experience.”   “That’s a little like what Kant does, isn’t it?” asked Alice. “He treated empirical evidence like raw data which must be processed through the machinery of reason. He saved philosophy from the schism between the rationalists like Descartes and the empiricists like Hume.”   “Yes,” said The Red Queen, “but Rand says Kant merely saved science and philosophy for religion. She blames Kant, Descartes, Hume and others for all these dichotomies; empiricism/ rationalism, mind/body, analytic/synthetic, a priori/ a posteriori. In "For the New Intellectual" Rand describes the two camps as: "those who claimed that man obtains his knowledge of the world by deducing it exclusively from concepts, which come from inside his head and are not derived from the perception of physical facts (the Rationalists)---and those who claimed that man obtains his knowledge from experience, which was held to mean: by direct perception of immediate facts, with no recourse to concepts (the Empiricists)."It was those who abandoned reality, or those who clung to reality by abandoning their mind. “Ayn Rand thinks that Aristotle's law of identity can be applied to reality and offer us real knowledge of the real world. Existence exists, she says, and it implies a corollary of causation. There is an objective reality, she maintains, which is reachable by man's mind if he chooses to use reason. Man is such that reason is necessary for his proper survival, as man, and each individual has a natural right, which is universal, objective, to employ reason in the pursuit of his or her goals. Unfortunately, unlike other living things which have automatic functions, man has a volitional consciousness which can be deceived by influences against reason, like faith and philosophies like that of Kant.” “And,” said The Mad Hatter, “that sounds all well and good, but it reduces everything to an integrated whole which, if one piece doesn’t fit, it violates the law of identity and the axioms on which everything is based. To deny knowledge is to be immoral. Galt said, “The extreme you have always struggled to avoid is the recognition that reality is final, that A is A and that truth is true.” So, if we disagree with Rand, then, according to her, we must be immoral.” bis bald, Nick    Report

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