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04-29-2007, 7:50 PM Londoner Joined on 04-30-2007 Posts 9 Can an Objectivist have children? In her novels, Ayn Rand argues that it is to immoral to live for another man's sake, or to derive one's happiness from the happiness of another man (or woman or child), or even to give something to another person as an act of charity as opposed to a voluntary trade for mutual benefit. Raising children requires giving one's time, energy and material resources to those children for years, when the children are too young to consent to give anything in return. The only thing one can receive in return - which children (at least in their early years) cannot give of their own conscious, rational volition - is happiness that derives from making another person happy. How, then, can it be moral to raise children?    Report

04-29-2007, 8:48 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? I don't think Rand felt what we do for our loved ones is altruistic. If our interest is to see them happy, then we are still selfish in working for their happiness. It would be altruistic, and irrational, to deny our loved ones while working for the interests of total strangers. If one has to choose between saving the life of a loved one and a total stranger, Rand would advise saving one's loved one. That would be the rational egoistic choice, even though some religions tell us to deny ourselves and help the stranger first. When people marry, they should do so for mutually beneficial reasons, not because one person is being charitable to another. When someone visits me in the hospital, I want them to do so because they want to, because there is something about me which they like, not because they feel a duty to visit me but would rather be somewhere else. Yes, we do lots of things for our children, and we think of them as sacrifices, but are they really? If we want out children to be happy, then making them happy is making us happy. We are doing it as much for ourselves as we are doing it for them. And, remember, Galt told Dagney he would kill himself to prevent her from being tortured to get information from him, and he considered that a selfish act. bis bald, Nick    Report

04-30-2007, 5:56 AM Londoner Joined on 04-30-2007 Posts 9 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? To avoid confusion and other undesirable consequences, I should make it clear now that I am not arguing against having children. Neither am I trying to discredit objectivism. I agree with its axiomatic premises about reason and existence, and with most of its conclusions - but not all of them. "If we want out children to be happy, then making them happy is making us happy." Correct, but is this not an immoral form of happiness under objectivist philosophy? Going to church or giving our posessions to the poor might make us feel happy, but that does not mean Rand would advocate such actions - she would argue that they cannot create true happiness, since (she says) they are irrational. "I don't think Rand felt what we do for our loved ones is altruistic." That's true to some extent. Howard Roak told Gail Wynand that he would die for his sake, but would not live for his sake. But regarding children, the first question is whether we should love them at all, if love is supposed to be based on admiring a person's virtues and abilities. What virtue or productive power is there to admire in a newborn? Plenty of potential probably, but nothing more to go on. Did Rand really advocate loving people for their potential, rather than their actual achievements? One could argue that babies do not choose to be unproductive, unlike some adults - so at least morally they are not at fault, although they have not achieved anything yet. But even if it is rational to love babies based on their potential, why should we love own babies more than other people's? Is it rational to treat a person differently because they are biologically related to you?    Report

04-30-2007, 11:22 AM Mr Squiggle Joined on 04-04-2007 Posts 35 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? "But regarding children, the first question is whether we should love them at all, if love is supposed to be based on admiring a person's virtues and abilities. What virtue or productive power is there to admire in a newborn? Plenty of potential probably, but nothing more to go on. Did Rand really advocate loving people for their potential, rather than their actual achievements?" That is a very good point Londoner.  I think that the answer may be that love of a child is sometimes a very egocentric type of love.  I don't have children, but an adult can see certain 'adultish' qualities in a child's personality.  Those qualities must in some part at least be linked to the adult that is raising the child - i.e. you get out what you put in.  So maybe seeing values in, and loving, a child is in fact a form of self love and appreciation? (at least when the child is very young)  But that beggs the question - does an adult really love the child, or is the love more a love of ones-self? There is also an aspect of investment for the future here.  A very young infant gives very little back to a parent, but it is rational to expect that a parent that raises a child well will reap great rewards from doing so when the child is older. This is an interesting discussion.  I have always thought that love for a child is totally different to love for an adult.  I think it is more biologically driven than love for an adult.    Report

04-30-2007, 4:15 PM Londoner Joined on 04-30-2007 Posts 9 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Yes, love of a child (at least one' own) is biologically driven - in other words, instinctive. The trouble is that Rand is highly critical of any behaviour or thoughts driven by instinct as opposed to reason. And yes, some economists (and others) see children as a long-term investment - for most of human history we have relied on our children, not the welfare state or even our own savings, to look after us in old age. But to create a person who will later have a moral obligation to look after you is surely incompatible with Objectivist ethics. Interesting idea about love of a child really being self-love - but is it a rational form of self-love?    Report

04-30-2007, 8:58 PM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Correct, but is this not an immoral form of happiness under objectivist philosophy? Going to church or giving our posessions to the poor might make us feel happy, but that does not mean Rand would advocate such actions - she would argue that they cannot create true happiness, since (she says) they are irrational. First, no, if one is genuinely happy doing things for a loved one, it is not altruism. The church example is different. Christianity tells us to deny ourselves. So if we are happy helping others, we are not really doing God's will. We are supposed to hate it. Being happy is selfish, and selfishness is a sin, according to most forms of Christianity. So, a little self-deception goes on here. There's a self-rightious sort of happiness in being miserable. And this really doesn't do much good for the people who need help. Remember, I said I'd rather people visit me in the hospital because they selfishly want to, not because they think it is their Christian duty to do so. Rand talks about our values being reflected in our loved ones, but love for our children is a chosen kind of love. It is more Existential rather than rational. We choose this value, just as we choose to be industrialists or businesspeople. It is one of the goals we choose in the pursuit of our ultimate goal of a meaningful life. Nobody has a right to tell us it is an immoral or irrational goal. It doesn't violate anyone's rights. It's what we choose to do with part of our lives. bis bald, Nick     Report

04-30-2007, 11:13 PM DonQuixote99 Joined on 04-28-2007 sw Ohio Posts 75 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Rand was more than critical of 'instincitive' behavior--she denied that it truly exists.  Orthodox objectivism sees people as a tabala rasa.  I do not.  I think our conscious rational capability is the latest mental faculty to evolve, but we have not left instinct totally behind yet.  I just think human instincts are less definate than the 'hard-coded' behavior oftne seen in other animals.  In people, I think instincts take the form of largely unconscious drives and urges.  They vary in content and intensity from individual to individual, and thay can be 'overridden' in various ways. Anyway, I think it's instinctive for parents to bond with and love their children.  I don't think rational considerations of whether they deserve love, or whether an investment in their care will be profitable, are usually primary in parent's motivations.  I note that the most intense feelings are typically for the youngest, most helpless children, and I don't think this is a coincidence.  But, as I said, individuals vary. Moreover, if people didn't have instincts to love and care for children, how would ANY two-year-olds survive? :)    Report

05-01-2007, 10:20 AM Mr Squiggle Joined on 04-04-2007 Posts 35 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Agreed, Don. Also, from a purely selfish gene point of view, forming emotional attachments to children makes sense as it is the best way to ensure replication and survival of the gene.  I know Rand probably would not approve of the selfish gene theory, as it is not a valid basis of morality, but it can sometimes provide useful explanations as to why we are the way we are. Does anyone know if the selfish gene theory was around when Rand wrote the Virtue of Selfishness?    Report

05-01-2007, 7:02 PM Londoner Joined on 04-30-2007 Posts 9 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? So it seems - correct me if I am wrong - there is a consensus here that love of one's children is good but not rational. Doesn't the fact that something can be good but not rational undermine objectivism?    Report

05-02-2007, 4:51 AM Mr Squiggle Joined on 04-04-2007 Posts 35 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? I don't know if I would say it is not rational.  I would admit that it is not wholly in line with Rand's idea of love between two adults.  Even if, however, it is a purely biological instinctual emotion that does not make it "irrational".  I think there should be room in objectivism for biological functions - they are necessary for the survival of the species.    Report

05-02-2007, 9:25 PM PaulK Joined on 05-03-2007 Posts 2 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? There is a danger in taking any philosophy too seriously. By this I mean applying the words of one person to life as gospel truth. Rand would recoil at the idea of viewing her novels, her lectures, her philosophy as gospel. The heart of Objectivism is the knowledge that your own rational mind is the ultimate arbiter, not Rand. Rationally, a parent (parenthood being a natural part of the human existence...you are so you had parents) must provide for a child without mutual benefit. This is not a sacrifice or a violation right. The moral balance is sought between two volitional beings. A child is not a fully formed volition. The influences of the parents and teachers create a fully formed volition capable of engaging in voluntary trade.    Report

05-03-2007, 11:50 AM NickOtani Joined on 04-21-2006 Posts 323 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? I never said that loving one's loved ones is not rational. It's not the same as what the religious people mean by altruism. If you selfishly want your child to flourish, then facilitating that flourishment is rationally selfish, not self-sacrifice. I'm not sure why I'm not being understood. bis bald, Nick      Report

05-03-2007, 1:27 PM PaulK Joined on 05-03-2007 Posts 2 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? I think I understand you. Raising children correctly and with love that derives from our own virtue of reason (because theirs has not formed) is a celebration of life not self-sacrifice. PaulK    Report

05-06-2007, 12:55 PM keapponlaffin Joined on 03-21-2006 Posts 67 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Nick, You stated, "Christianity tells us to deny ourselves. So if we are happy helping others, we are not really doing God's will. " Perhaps you could provide some justification for this claim (preferably quoting the Bible, not Rand). Although this is only indirectly related, Christianity does not in fact tell one to be miserable or unhappy. See Deuteronomy 16 & 24, 1 Samuel 18, 1 Kings 8, 1 Chronicles 15, Psalm 4 (every Psalm, really), Ecclesiastes 2, Isaiah 12, Jeremiah 31, Matthew 25... ok, you get the point. The point is you've made a broad claim which is contrary to fact, based upon Rand's straw man of the religion, not the religion itself. So, in what way is the love for one's child different from the love a humanitarian aid worker has for the starving in Africa, or the Christian has for praise and worship? This is an issue that has bothered me for quite some time. On one hand, the objectivist ethics say that selfishness is doing what is in fact in one's self interest. That is, what is conducive to your own survival. On the other hand, objectivists want to include other aims as well (giving up your life to benefit another, supporting kids, etc). This is a different sense of the word "selfish" which is more like doing that which you want to do. But, if objectivism was really just saying that it's good to do whatever you want to do, then it would have no real content at all. I don't expect a resolution to this inconsistency, but it should be pointed out nonetheless.    Report

05-06-2007, 12:58 PM keapponlaffin Joined on 03-21-2006 Posts 67 Re: Can an Objectivist have children? Mr. Squiggle, Not only is the selfish gene not a foundation for morality (the is/ought barrier), it's not even good science. Isolating evolutionary change to the genes at the expense of ignoring the entire developmental system is entirely unjustified. Given that genes are not the only replicators, and that life couldn't continue without these other replicators (e.g. cell walls), the theory is a non-starter.    Report

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